‘Lateral Moves’ Working in the Natural & Built Environment with René Fan

Written By Elspeth Holland

Listen to the full episode on Spotify

 

Elspeth speaks with landscape architect René Fan on the intentional and unintentional decisions that led her through historic preservation, landscape design, and now working at an environmental and social enterprise.

Show Links:

So I Decided can be found at www.soidecidedpodcast.com and on Instagram @soidecidedpodcast

So I Decided is recorded on Lenapehoking, the traditional homeland of the Lenape people.

TRANSCRIPTION

Hi everyone and welcome back. I'm Elspeth Holland and this is So I Decided, a podcast about changemakers in design and landscape architecture who are making a positive impact on the world around them.

If you haven't yet listened to the introductory episode I released a few weeks ago, I would highly recommend that you listen to that to learn a little bit more about the show. This is the first episode where I'm introducing a guest and I couldn't be happier that that person is Rene Fan. In this episode we have a really great conversation about her career and the unintentional and intentional decisions along the way. She's an incredibly kind person and I am so grateful for her wisdom and honesty, which I find extremely refreshing and relatable.

In the episode we do talk about a job posting that has since been filled. I will be including some show links if you do happen to be interested.

Thank you again for being here. Thank you to Renee for joining me for the conversation, which I hope you greatly enjoy.

EH: Good morning, Rene. Thank you so much for joining me on the So I Decided podcast. I'm really grateful that you can take some time this morning to chat with me.

RF: Well, thank you for having me.

EH: I wonder if we can get started by you introducing yourself and a little bit about what you do and your background.

RF: Sure, sure. Well, good morning, Elspeth. Thanks for having me on. It's like I told you before, it's a great honor, but a little surprising for me. My name is Renee Phan, F-A-N, like a ceiling fan, although we're not named after that. I grew up in Calgary, Alberta and studied geography and environmental studies as well as historic preservation before landing in landscape architecture.

EH: Awesome. You studied historic preservation and then made your way to landscape architecture. I know that you also worked a bit in that field prior to your working as a landscape architect.

RF: Yeah. So after historic preservation, I did work in a number of architecture offices doing preservation work, building conservation and preservation, both in New York and Toronto. And I think it was through that period of wanting to do more environmental work as well as being just fascinated with landscape issues and infrastructure projects that were going in in New York at the time, especially all the bikeways up along the Hudson and then the idea of the Hudson and the East River bikeways being all connected around the entire island. And me being a pretty committed cyclist and commuter, I kind of returned to this interest in geography and landscape.

EH: I hope you don't mind also, I looked you up prior to this and I found a page where, no, did you play the accordion?

RF: Oh, yes. I still, I mean, I wish I played more, but I played in an accordion band in an all accordion orchestra called the Main Squeeze Orchestra. And I'm sure everyone would be so pleased that I'm plugging this right now.

EH: I love that, the Main Squeeze. So, right. So just to backtrack, you were here, you went to school for historic preservation, you worked in the field, avid cyclist, accordion player, and then you had these interests in landscape. School brought you to Toronto?

RF: Yeah. So, you know, I'm Canadian and it just made sense for me to study in Canada, as we all know, the cost of education. And it's a, you know, it's known as a great school and I did visit before I moved to Toronto because I hadn't lived here before. Although it felt like I was returning home to Canada, it was actually a completely new city. Yeah. And so then I started an MLA at the University of Toronto. Yeah, after working for about like eight years in preservation, building preservation in New York, cycling and accordion playing.

EH: Can you speak to a little bit more about what is historic preservation look like in New York? What kind of things were you doing?

RF: So I think it's a pretty big field in terms of what I was doing was, you know, there's always a little bit of difference between theory and practice and what you study in school and what you end up doing for work but New York is filled with old buildings and they are in need of repairs, you know, some more reconstruction and restoration than others. There was a local law 11, which has now been changed to a different local law, which since I'm not there anymore, I don't remember the number, but they also required a lot of regular inspections of buildings over a certain height to make sure that they were safe because parts had been falling off buildings and wow, injuring if not killing people. Yeah. So that was also kind of a huge part of the work is, is surveying and doing repair work for these historic buildings. And like New York presents its particular kind of site and contacts, but I know preservation in different places can have much more landscape components than a building like with just a sidewalk. And yeah, so it was the Weeksville project in Brooklyn, which really kind of inspired me in terms of landscape preservation. So there were two landscape architects for that project and I thought they did the coolest work. So Weeksville is originally these four wood clad houses along what was called Hunter Fly Road. And this road preceded the grid in Brooklyn. And so these houses didn't front Bergen Street, but actually kind of were sited facing into the lot. And the landscape architects were kind of tasked with recreating this dirt road and also worked with an archeologist to kind of do test pits of the backyards, the pollen, reconstruct kitchen gardens. Also like there were privy pits and outhouses. I mean, all of that I thought was really, really fascinating.

EH: Yeah, that's very cool. And then, so you went to school for landscape architecture. Did any of that sort of come with you in how you approached the program or did it follow through at all in your studies or beyond when you started practicing?

RF: I think when you start a design project in landscape architecture, history is just kind of one factor of investigation. History along with say, soils or use of the site program, it's kind of just one thing that is part of your entire analysis. So I always think it's really important to know the natural history, but also the cultural history and all those aspects. I think sometimes you can feel like it's hard to come up with an imaginative idea or concept when you're too tied to what used to be there. So it has to kind of, you have to be able to balance all those factors or all those different parts of the site.

EH: So you went to school and after that you entered a landscape architecture firm from there?

RF: Yeah. Well, no, when I graduated from my MLA degree, it was a recession and there wasn't a lot of jobs. Although I think for me it might have been a particularly different path or journey because I had come into this degree with experience, a lot of experience with kind of all the programs and also this experience in preservation that when I applied for jobs in landscape, no one knew what to do with. So although I considered it kind of lateral move and staying within the design field or staying within the architecture and construction field, knowing all the programs, knowing how a project starts, moves and ends, I don't think I was really considered that hireable at the time because I was older, had all this experience and no one knew what to do with and didn't want to pay me for. And so I wasn't going to be kind of the young cheap drafts person that oftentimes is kind of the starting point. So I ended up doing preservation again after my three years in school, which was, you know, at the time, hard because it was a huge sacrifice to give up my life in New York and come back to school, be, you know, on a very limited means and budget again. And then for all those three years after that to go back to what I was trying to leave.

EH: Yeah. So in that role, did the landscape or like further design education serve you at all? Did you think that you thought differently as you approached some of the same or similar work or issues?

RF: It did. Because there is like a, you know, a really important field of cultural heritage landscapes. So there are historic landscapes and these are kind of natural outdoor spaces, which have been manipulated, you know, still designed. And I could, you know, I was in a better position to assess and evaluate and survey this component of say, yeah, an investigation or assessment. But I had just come out of school. So I needed, you know, a mentor and someone to help me in this new field. But like after a year or so, I did get a job in landscape architecture again. And that's when I moved back to New York for that.

EH: Okay, right. Did you ever end up finding a mentor or you just sort of applied and talked to everybody you could that led to this position in New York?

RF: I just applied. Like New York has always been a place of incredible opportunities. And, and openness to people from everywhere, which I didn't actually find in Toronto. I found it very kind of connections based and closed. And even though, even though you come with experience in education, I didn't, I had no connections. And that was a liability. Whereas in New York, it's not.

EH: Right. You have people coming from everywhere, as you said, right? But I'm, I'm also interested, like, did that reflect in the position you got in landscape or they do you think there was a slight more openness to the background you brought with you?

RF: Yeah. So in that case, the preservation experience was an asset because they worked on historic landscapes or sites that had historic features. And so, you know, thankfully I found a place that considered it good.

EH: Yeah. That's really, I mean, it sounds like it was particular also to what they were doing. So how long did you stay in New York? And then did you go back to Toronto following that?

RF: Yeah, I stayed in New York for a few more years. So I moved back. Like, literally during Hurricane Sandy, which was just like a stunning, not the right word, but like a time of like a huge, I don't know, it felt like an upheaval or like a, you know, a crisis point. We drove in, a friend and I drove in and there were no lights, no street lights south of, I don't know, 23rd. We drove in in the dark and there were police officers with flashlights.

EH: Why were you driving in? You were moving back at that time?

RF: Yeah. When I first moved, like, no, yeah, when I moved back to New York after being in Toronto, yeah, we drove down and there still wasn't street lights down or maybe it's south of 59th. I remember seeing a really striking aerial photo where there was no power south of a certain point and it might've been 59th street, like right south of Central Park.

And people were home during the weekdays and it was, yeah, people lined up for gas. I remember lining up, waiting for gas for hours. So it was, yeah, it was a very, like, you know, unusual for North America, not unusual for other places in the world.

EH: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think for landscape architects working in the city, that must have been a pretty interesting time to be coming and working in this field, know the kind of conversations you must've heard.

RF: Yeah. The conversations weren't necessarily about, like, the climate crisis. The conversations were more kind of about managing to get in or not into the city or not.

EH: Right. Yeah, kind of more- Managing the emergency. Yeah.

RF: Yeah. Like, yeah, it's an incredible, I mean, I think, resilient city.

EH: Right. You mean the ways that people bond together and-

RF: Make it work. People are so friendly and helpful. Most times.

EH: Yes. But especially in times of-

RF: Right. Yeah, there's a kind of a great solidarity of, it's a great public culture. I think the subways have to do a lot with it. Yeah, I remember walking over the bridge, I think it was the Manhattan Bridge, after 9-11, and it was just completely, like, guardrail to guardrail just people. And yeah, there's, I don't know, it's much easier to talk to strangers.

EH: I didn't realize, I mean, it's true though, speaking to you about your time in New York. You had lived here through some, you know, obviously very important moments in the city.

RF: Yeah.

EH: It's, yeah, and it's an incredible learning environment, which I think you've spoken to, you know. Yeah, again, not that New York is related to this podcast, but perhaps in some way I have been influenced by this interest in people and people's stories and just like all the incredible backgrounds I learn about it. But also especially in this field of landscape architecture, you know, it's a small part in the world, but the people it attracts who come from just such, again, varied backgrounds. And I think this conversation we were having about what those backgrounds can bring to this field is interesting as we all move forward, especially dealing with events, you know, Hurricane Sandy being one of those, what we bring and how we move forward. And it's not something I can solve all the world's problems. But I think sometimes it's people speak about it like it can.

RF: Well, U of T talks about it like that.

EH: Which is amazing. And I think really creates some incredible designers and thinkers. But, you know, I've been inspired by our conversations about, I think, some of the things that you're doing to help in your, our human way now. And so I wonder if we can transition the conversation a little bit. I'd love to hear you speak a little bit about what you're up to. Now we've missed a bit of a gap. Maybe let's start from leaving New York.

RF: Yes. So, I mean, you know, some changes that people make in their careers aren't intentional. Sometimes decisions are made for you or you make decisions not related to work. And I actually went to Nepal for about six months, which is a reason for leaving New York. And I'd never lived in a developing country before. But I mean, just talking about things like lining up for gas, for hours. These are all things that are reality for many people around the world. And yeah, I learned a lot and I became really grateful for being a Canadian and coming back home and being able to have light by just turning on a light switch and being able to get gas 24 hours a day, however much I wanted. I wasn't limited to like 25 litres. I came back to Canada and also worked in a couple of private offices and around the pandemic, I had this opportunity to work for a nonprofit. And again, opportunities come in many different disguises. So I had first heard about Rainscape through Helen Mills and Helen Mills is the founder of Lost Rivers in Toronto. And I had known her through working in the summers for her when she had a gardening company called Green Gardeners.

And so when I was a landscape architecture student at U of T, you know, we did yards, but we did specifically the specialty of Green Gardeners was rain gardens. And it's directing flow from a downspout to an area of plantings and infiltration, like water and infiltration. And it was a lot of fun. It was great experience for kind of smaller jobs closer to where we started. We actually towed a trailer on my bike to jobs. So it was kind of environmental in all of its, not just the result, but in the operations. So like Helen is incredible and she still continues to this day leading walks about buried and lost streams in Toronto. And she had told me about an opportunity with Rainscape. Rainscape being a social enterprise within the Toronto green community, which is kind of the, it's a nonprofit organization that has a number of initiatives, Rainscape just being one, Lost Rivers being another.

EH: Got it. I didn't realize that the green community is just the umbrella connecting those two.

RF: And actually Toronto green community is part of a much larger umbrella group called Green Communities Canada. And that is the organization that manages the Depave projects in Canada.

EH: Right. Well, I reached out to you because I had read about it in the OALA, the Ontario Association of Landscape Architects publication. And I just thought it was so cool. This, see, it's funny because when I was reading about it, it sort of felt like this grassroots type initiative. I've learned since that it's a kind of a much bigger initiative.

RF: Yeah. So Depave started in Portland, Oregon with projects that remove pavement, asphalt, concrete, any kind of impermeable surface and planting in place and planting beneficial species for pollinators or like habitat for wildlife of that region, native species. And a lot of their projects are in, I believe, schoolyards, other community groups and organizations. It came to Canada in 2012 and it has DPave projects across the country, but there have been many, many in Ontario. And so we did one last year in Toronto and it had been suggested to me that it might be nice to write about it. So I reached out to Emily Amann from Green Communities Canada. We just co-wrote a piece starting out with my project, but also showing kind of the geographical reach and the many different types of sites that Depave can work on.

EH: Yeah. And I'd love to hear you speak more about, I know you mentioned this, the project you worked on was a store, privately owned store. And so how did the process go? Like that starting that initial conversation?

RF: So yeah, so we did our project, that old school general store out near Woodbine Lumsden in East York. And we just reached out through all our channels, like all the groups that we knew and people that we knew. And Helen actually helped us find Toronto urban growers, dog, and they knew about this property, which is a much loved community store that sells everything that you need just in terms of a snack, lottery tickets, cigarettes, as well as incredible books, like food and like gifts and like jigsaw puzzles, things for kids. Yeah, just a really neat place that all types of people from the neighborhood love. And they had a side yard that was paved and that they had tried to put potted plants and like a picnic table, but they really just wanted it to be all green. And they didn't know how they could manage that. You know, they're a small business, not a lot of capital, like not a lot of extra funds lying around. And they didn't know how they would ever have a garden. And so they were really excited at the idea of depaving and definitely had enough loyal followers and people who came to the store that would help. And that's what depave requires.

EH: Volunteers

RF: Yeah, it's definitely, it's the volunteers and the community that comes together to do

the work of removing pavement and planting.

EH: That's amazing. So the process is literally removing pavement. So it's pretty hands on.

RF: Very hands on initiative. Right. It's heavy. And it's like a lot of elbow grease.

EH: But it's so amazing because like I imagine and I hope that this, you know, neighborhood and the community members, especially the ones who actually use their hands to build this now feel, I imagine pretty proud and have this new space they have. And is there like table and chairs type situation that you can enjoy it or just?

RF: Yeah. So what we did for seating is that we bought gabion baskets. And so of the large amounts of concrete that we've removed, we filled the gabion baskets with this salvaged waste material to make sitting areas. And they also, I think they've put, they've kind of retrofitted wood boards on tops just to make a more comfortable sitting area, sitting surface for, yeah, people to sit and face either outside or inside. And it was just like a really good use of waste material that would otherwise have been costly. And I mean, we still required a dumpster bin, but it reduced the amount to put in.

EH: That's amazing. I did realize that about reusing the material in gabions and hearing you say gabions made me realize like that's such a, I don't know if I think it's a landscape architectural term. I mean, other people use gabion walls, but it's like, are you the only one on your team who does have that background or?

RF: There are other people on the team that had kind of like ecosystem restoration management type of skills and experience. Like the project requires a city permit, which is kind of, it can be a very time consuming process, lots of follow-ups. So there were regulations and you know, call before you dig and getting locates. So there's yeah, a whole bunch of checklists of important things to do before removing pavement, before digging or cutting into that. We did find in the middle of the side yard was actually a concrete platform underneath the asphalt. So that was a lot of like, you know, you find unexpected conditions on site that have to be managed. Right. Yeah. So, you know, all of that is happening on like a community led project, which you know, is challenging.

EH: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's interesting. I think your background in historic preservation and history of like interest in the history of sites is there's a whole other history, it's lying right beneath our feet all the time that people maybe don't think about. And then you start taking into the site and discover all kinds of things. Like, so what

was the platform?

RF: So the store before it was this kind of corner store was a butcher shop and there was a basement hatch. So there used to be kind of those two doors that open up in the sidewalk surface and deliveries that go down into the basement. So when that was no longer used, I believe they just took off the doors and like fill the whole thing with a layer of concrete. Yeah, we had to take out.

EH: Wow. Yeah. So how long did this whole, the building process take?

RF: Well, the removal of the pavement was one job, one kind of arduous job, but the placement of soil was not easy either. So we had ordered two truckloads of soil and the truck couldn't just dump the soil at this location because there were power lines that were too low. And so they actually had to dump around the corner at a different location. And we had to wheelbarrow like two truckloads of soil around the corner, which is how everyone enters and leaves the store. And it was raining and had to get done because we had volunteers planting the next weekend. There's all sorts of time constraints that, you know, make it a challenge.

EH: Absolutely. And realities. And I do want to hear about the other project that you work on, but just this opportunity to really be building things, seeing things, working with people on performing those duties that I know, you know, many people entering the field of landscape architecture may not have the chance to get to a site, you know, right away.

RF: I mean, it was great experience just understanding all of these kinds of limitations or factors in getting work done just so you know, so you know for the future. But I think the real value of the Depave project is having neighbors come together at the site, neighbors who don't know each other, working on something positive, and hopefully feeling proud of the result and taking care of and stewarding the site for the future is I think the real value of the kind of citizen direct action of the project. I also am working on a pilot project with the city and there are many kind of horticultural sites that are not maintained and there isn't anyone taking responsibility for them. And like in this case, through the way that it was made, it guarantees you kind of stewards and people that are stakeholders of this project that will feel connected to it to take care of it.

EH: So you're working with the city and you're both building and maintaining existing green infrastructure?

RF: Mostly, it's mostly maintaining. Green Forest TO is a workforce development program within Green Streets, which is a program of transportation services. So it started in 2021 and yeah, there are a lot of green infrastructure sites which have not been maintained sufficiently for it to function, to have its full functionality. And so we have a team of people that visit these green infrastructure sites on our kind of rotating schedule and they maintain not just the kind of the stormwater function of it, but also the plants and pulling out invasives when needed, planting new species. But generally, I mean, they're making sure that it still unctions as a stormwater management kind of green infrastructure site.

EH: It's a workforce development program. So have you needed to educate people who never have heard of like, what is green infrastructure and like, why is this important?

RF: For sure. Yeah. So Rainscape, we have partnered with Building Up, which is also a social enterprise. They do a lot of training for more construction related careers, say in electrical contractors or carpenters or placing people directly into these trades. But we thought that we could kind of expand on that workforce development to include landscape. So we partnered with them and we had initially targeted neighborhood improvement areas. So using these kind of under maintained horticultural areas and green infrastructure sites to create local employment opportunities. And yeah, you know, people who have barriers to employment, it's really exposing like a whole bunch of different people to the idea of green infrastructure. And we have kind of onboarding sessions which talk about green infrastructure in terms of, say, the natural water cycle, the natural hydrological cycle and how the urban environment is very much a disrupted water cycle where there's virtually no infiltration and then no groundwater flow and an incredible amount of surface runoff. So this is water that doesn't get cleaned, filtered naturally and goes straight into our lakes and rivers and how that impacts water quality and what green infrastructure does to kind of hack this disrupted cycle and create areas of infiltration. Whether it's a green roof, whether it's these bioswales, whether we're detaining water from a combined sewer system by having rainwater cisterns and kind of managing combined sewer overflows. Like green infrastructure is kind of one method. I mean, there are kind of many methods. This is like a source control or conveyance control, but not like an end of pipe solution.

EH: Got it. And you mentioned it's an exciting time, right? Summer, I guess, in the warmer months, you're sort of getting up off the ground and it's going to be a busy season for you all, it sounds like.

RF: Yeah. So it's our third season. We have a great crew and we just started last week. We have some new initiatives this year because we're in our third year. Some new initiatives that we're hoping to get off the ground and to kind of further our impact with our environmental and social objectives.

EH: Awesome. Well, before we move on, I'd curious if people are interested in Rainscape or the work or the initiatives, are there ways to get involved or do you take volunteers?

RF: For sure. So the Green Force TO project, this year we have a kind of community ambassadors program. We're looking for community members from a variety of neighborhoods where our green infrastructure is located to help steward a site and kind of bring awareness to the community and in the neighborhood about this asset and about this resource to help like maybe lead a tour of different green infrastructure sites. I mean, this would be kind of their own project, but we will be putting out a posting for it. We usually post on goodwork.com and that would be kind of your own project with an honorarium until from the spring to the fall. We are on the city's Green Streets webpage as well. If anyone is interested, the Green Streets section has a whole bunch of resources, drawings, specs, all sorts of information about different types of GI.

EH: That's wonderful. It's been excellent hearing about your background, moments in your life that we all have that caused you to make a transition and how you look back on those things to what you're doing now. I wonder if there are any things we didn't ask you

that through this conversation you might have thought about or want to share, particularly as they might relate to people who are interested, I think in landscape architecture, but also professions or ways that they can work to benefit their community or interested in professions or enterprises that are doing work that touches the city and improves the places we live in the outdoor environment. Definitely an open question to you if there's anything you'd like to share.

RF: Well, I've always wanted to do environmental work. I've always wanted to kind of improve, do good work that benefits the environment. And I think landscape architecture is uniquely suited to respond to this time of climate crisis. And I think it has this medium. We have so many opportunities to do good work that responds to say the extinction of so many species of providing habitat for wildlife, of regenerating the land, for offsetting carbon, to say manage food security. I just think that the profession is uniquely suited to respond to the call. And I do think we are heading towards a crisis, or if not in one already. And it's really important that we all act in the best of our capacity to help.

EH: Right. Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. And I think it's an important message to leave

off on and also a encouraging message. People, I think, receiving this education and working in this field do have the ability to make their contribution. And I'm so grateful to have spoken to you and hear about yours. And it's been a really lovely conversation. Thank you so much.

RF: Thank you so much for having me. I always enjoy talking to you. It's always so much fun and I hope to talk again and see you again sometime.

EH: Of course. Yeah, off the recording. Well, that sounds great. Thanks, Rene.

RF: Thank you, Elspeth.

 
Elspeth Holland
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